Boxclever vs Toffee

[Toffeewoman]

Hello all

I've been a member for a while now and this is my first post. I've been a bit nervous about posting and try to find my own solutions from other cases, but I have a problem I desperately need help with.

I'm being taken to court by the solicitors of Boxclever. Due to various personal issues (including double-bereavement, redundancy & chronic depression), I let my mail build up into a mountain and have just opened the court letter yesterday. I got on line and asked for more time via the Acknowledgement of Service, and have stated I wish to contend the claim. I'm unsure whether to counterclaim as I think I was missold the insurance (implied I had to have it to rent the machine) but have time to decide that. I may have been too hasty out of fear, as I think I should have asked for the hearing to be in London - I'm never going to get to Northampton.

I rented a (reconditioned!) washer/drier in October 2001. I paid up around 23 pounds per month since then (including 3.30 insurance), up to June last year. I was made redundant, and had to cancel all my direct debits. The machine hadn't worked for about a year, and in September after a phonecalls from them, I told them to collect it as I couldn't afford it any more. I also told them I was unable to pay the last couple of months. I admit to 3 months rental owed. Before they were due to collect it, they called me to try to sell it to me for 30 (or fifty pounds, I can't remember). I said it didn't work, come and collect it. Anyway, this heap of junk is still sat in my kitchen. They've now put a charge on for a new machine (!!) And are after me for interest as well as costs, for a machine they didn't even want back! After 8 years they have the gall to do this. I'm scared and very angry.

Because I have other debts, this one was last on my list (now moved up because of Court). I didn't write to them but most of this took place on the phone before it was cut.

I need to know what I should do regarding my defence and if I have a leg to stand on. I was going to admit the 3 months which I technically do owe but counterclaiming for mis-sold insurance (about a grand) and again requesting they come and get the damn machine. I want the cost of a new machine taken off the bill too. Will I be liable for the costs now I've said on the AofS that I admit some of the debt? Can I counterclaim for the insurance? I have the original till receipt, Hire Agreement & Cert of Insurance from 2001 (I was given nothing else). And do I have to go to Court in order to defend this or can I do it in absentia? I'm stuffed if I have to go to Northampton.

Apologies for such a long post. I have other debts that need resolving too but am doing them one step at a time, the most urgent first. I know you are all really busy and thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

Toffee

PS Issue Date for Claim was 25th June 2009, so I think I have 3 weeks to prepare my defence and send it off.

ETA They say on the form "to goods sold between 10/03/04 to 9/3/9". This is wrong as it was HP for a start, and it began in 2001. Is this important? Total amount of claim is 372.50 pounds plus (80) costs.

[kurvaface]

Hi Toffeewoman.

first...don't worry, you'll get good advice on here and bit by bit you'll get it sorted out.

second....what's the company? (edit doh...boxclever?)

third.....are you able to post up the "Agreement" you have with this company?

[Toffeewoman]

Hi kurvaface

Thanks so much for your reply. Can't post the copy of the agreement as I have no scanner. It's one they gave me at the shop when I signed up. Contains my personal details, equipment details, monthly hire cost plus domestic total cover. Total monthly payment 23.29. It was printed out on duplicate paper, my customer one being the undercopy. The reverse of this long bit of paper has the Hire terms and conditions in very pale & very small grey print.

Charges were payable in advance. Which they were until June, so Jul/Aug/Sept (when I asked them to come and get it) is what I think I do owe. It's so weird that they have the date on the Claim as three years after I began renting it. I've paid over two grand out over the years, and they're trying to charge me for a new machine. It wasn't even new when I hired it! It's funny, I remember the assistant saying 'sign your life away here' when she gave me the form to sign. She wasn't kidding!!

ETA Oh, and the receipt shows a 20 quid admin fee! For what? The assistant doing her job? Crazy. I must've been mad..

[havinastella]

Hi Toffee,

So, in real terms, you have been leasing a washer dryer for 9 yrs at 23.29 a month!

Total cost of the item would be about £500 and you have paid about £2515 over the nine years?

[havinastella]

sorry just re read the first post!

It's a HP agreement and the item did not work!

I take it you had no idea of your rights here?

JOgs

[Toffeewoman]

Hi havinastella

Sorry, maybe I've not been clear. It did work until about 18 months ago. I've just had loads of problems (not an excuse, just facts) so didn't call them to fix it as I didn't want anyone in the flat. I still paid up until I actually couldn't anymore due to redundancy.

I'm now getting a life and trying to sort out these outstanding debts.

And yes, I've paid through the nose like a twit for the damn thing, and they have the bloody nerve to charge for a new machine on top! When I rang them to collect it, they wouldn't give me an appointment till a month later so they could shove another charge on (they deliver quick when you sign up though). Then they called trying to get me to buy it for fifty quid a few days before they were due to collect it! My dad's funeral intervened and in the end I still have a broken heap of poo in my kitchen.

[Toffeewoman]

I just wanted to add I've read the Court Claim Form again. It says under the Particulars of Claim:

The claimant's claim is for the price of goods sold and delivered by the claimant to the defendant.

Nothing has been sold to me and the Hire Agreement is from 2001. Is this just legalese that can cover rental, or is it simply wrong? They added the cost of the new machine to the o/s monies before it was sent to their solicitors/court. Could this be what they mean? That it has now turned into my property not paid for? I'm confused.

[kurvaface]

It would be really helpful if you could get the "Agreement" along with any terms and conditions for us to have a good look at. Do you have a digital camera or are you able to type them out?

Bottom line.... their case rests on this "Agreement" and if we can show it's bogus....

[Toffeewoman]

OK, I have no way of copying it so I'll type it out. It consists of two pages, which are still stuck together at the top like from a very long A4 pad (that kind of glue stuff at the top) and they took their copy from the top.

My top customer copy is the Hire Agreement and the second page is the Certificate of Insurance which I was told I had to take out to hire the machine. No insurance, no machine. I also have a till receipt.

First page to follow..

[clemma]

I bet you the insurance is not compulsary - I will have a look when you have copied the particulars on here. Boxclever are on a par with the likes of Brighthouse (whom I have had many dealings with ). If it has been mis-sold, you will be able to claim back on it.

As for the agreement, I will check that for you too........Boxclever sound like the kind of company I would love to take on

[kurvaface]

Go for it clemma

[kiptower]

back @ the begining it was a rental / lease agreement, they fall flat in their claim "goods sold to"

you leased the item and they never delivered a new one as they claim

their claim is flawed from the start,

you need to put together a defence and make these points clear,

[Toffeewoman]

My notes are in italics. I've bolded where they have. Font/s & sizes are not true as I can't adjust them here.
_________________________ _________________________ ___________
In Blue Margin left, preprinted & running down page:

boxclever
the new name for granada and radio rentals

This is a Rental Agreement between Home Technology Finance Ltd (Registered in England No 3702428 ) trading as boxclever, of Technology House, Ampthill Road, Bedford MD42 9QQ ("the company") and You ("the hirer") whereby it is agreed that the Company shall supply and the Hirer shall rent the Equipment specified in the Agreement Schedule on the terms shown therein and in accordance with the Rental Agreement terms and conditions overleaf.

AGREEMENT SCHEDULE

(a) Your hire charges are payable in advance, the first payment shall be made immediately upon your signature of this agreement and subsequent payments on the corresponding day in each month.

(b) Payments due on the 29th, 30th or 31st of each month shall be due on the last day of the month where there is no corresponding date.

(c) The total monthly payment may be varied at any time after the Minimum Hire Period on giving prior notice.

(d) The total monthly payment may be varied to reflect:
(i) any change effective subsequent to the signature of this Agreement resulting from the imposition or variation of any tax, statutory duty or levy at any time
(ii) any variation in VAT.

(e) If you terminate this Agreement within the Minimum Hire Period then you must pay the balance of sums due to the end of that period immediately.

_________________________ _________________________ ____________
For those item(s) of equipment which I do not take out your EPP insurance. I agree to reimburse you with the full value of the equipment in the event of theft or accidental damage.
Signature (blank)
_________________________ _________________________ _____________


Hire Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974
_________________________ _________________________ _____________

Main body of agreement, printed from a machine in-store on white:

Account No: xxxxxxxxxxx Agreement No: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Del. Note xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Your Name & Address Installation Address

Toffeewoman
xxxxxxxx Road
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tel No: xxxxxxxx (n/a now)

Equipment Details Payments

HOTWWD51 1100RPM WASHING DRYER 19.99

TOTAL MONTHLY HIRE 19.99

Cover:
DOMESTIC TOTAL COVER 3.30

TOTAL MONTHLY PAYMENT 23.29



Minimum Hire Period 18 months
Method of payment is direct debit Microfilm No(s) BL

_________________________ _________________________ _____________

Then three boxes:

YOUR DECLARATION
You should read this Agreement, the terms and conditions overleaf and this Declaration before signing, since by signing this application in the boxes opposite you:
(i) confirm that all details are true and complete that you are over 18 years of age and that we may verify particulars;
(ii) are aware that before granting credit we may search the files of one or more credit reference agencies which will keep a record of our enquiry. We may also disclose details about the account and your conduct of it to the agency (or agencies). Information thus held is used only to help make credit decisions affecting your or members of your household or occasionally for fraud prevention or tracing debtors. Information about accounts may be shared confidentially within the boxclever Group of Companies. You confirm that you have been notified that we may disclose information to other selected companies and we and they may send you mailings about, or contact you by telephone, fax or email to discuss, products and services that may be of interest to you. Should you prefer not to receive such information you should tick this box (tiny box here not ticked);
iii) understand that the Company may, in its absolute discretion, subsequently offer you additional credit facilities such as a credit card. To enable you to take advantage of these facilities, you request that the Company send you (at any time during this Agreement) a credit card or any other credit token now or hereafter made available to you by the Company and;
iv) acknowledge that you hae considered the terms and conditions of this Agreement in particular the obligations and reponsibilities contained in clauses 2,3,4 and 6 of the Hire Terms and Conditions;**
v) acknowledge that if you are making a payment to the Company by the way of credit or charge card that the Company is authorised to effect both your initial payment and subsequent payments upon notification to you.

_________________________ _________________________ ______________

This is a Hire Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.

Signature(s) of Hirer(s) Toffeewoman

Date(s) of Signature(s) Not dated

Under this agreement the goods do not become your property and you must not sell them.
_________________________ _________________________ _____________

Signed by boxclever Not legible but signed

Date of Signature 25/10/01

_________________________ _________________________ ______________

Bottom tiny writing states: Home Technology Finance Limited is a member of the boxclever group

Number on form bottom right: FBC5002 (05/01) BL

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, there is a dotted line under which is a Direct Debit Guarantee. I must have filled it out on the top copy which they retained.


**The parts referred to above of the T&Cs are overleaf of this top page in pale grey. It is all very small and the page is crowded with them. The headings of the particular ones quoted above are:

2 DELIVERY AND ACCEPTANCE
3 MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
4 IF YOU HAVE A CLAIM
6 ARRANGEMENTS WITH THIRD PARTIES

_________________________ _________________________ ______________

The second page, still 'glued on' to the above from the pad is the Certificate of Insurance underwritten by Cornhill. This is long, one-sided and very small font, covering 3 vertical columns of points. I can copy if needs be.

I can also copy out the back of the Agreement if I have to, or the body of the main points of 2,3,4 & 6 noted above.

Phew! Knackered now!

I can't see anything wrong with this, apart from the fact they made me take out the insurance or no rental. The way it is 'glued' from the pad seems to uphold this too; they go together. But maybe you can find something...

[clemma]

Originally Posted by Toffeewoman

_________________________ _________________________ ____________
For those item(s) of equipment which I do not take out your EPP insurance. I agree to reimburse you with the full value of the equipment in the event of theft or accidental damage.
signature (blank)
_________________________ _________________________ _____________

There is your proof that insurance is NOT compulsary

You need to start claiming that back. Also, as this is clearly a HP agreement, the POC's on their claim form is incorrect by stating they have "sold" goods to you.

Will have another gander and see what else I can spot for you

[Toffeewoman]

Thanks for all the responses guys! I didn't see them as my fingers were flashing over the keyboard!

Clemma, you sound particularly like you know that you're familiar with the like. Yes, they are like Brighthouse, except you don't buy off boxclever - unless of course, you try to get them to remove your goods, in which case they want to give it to you for 50 quid! A reconditioned, now useless machine, paid for in good faith for 8 years...

[Toffeewoman]

Thanks so much! I feel better already. Should I make the potentially mis-sold insurance part of my defence? I typed that bit out and it didn't occur to me! I have a few weeks so I'm not panicking (much) about it yet. I need to look up the law on it. I don't know if I can put it as a counterclaim as part of this current case. If so, it will exceed what I think I owe them, but not what they think I owe.

I want to include that they need to come and collect the ruddy thing and remove that charge for a new one too.

ETA I don't know if it makes a difference (I spotted his name elsewhere on the forum) but the solicitors are Bryan Carter & Co Solicitors.

[clemma]

Yes!! Put it as part of your claim! You need to write to them as well - am busy at work, but you can find the link to the letters by going on

www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk

It's on one of the drop down menus (can't think which one, but you need to find library).

Will pop back later with more info.....

[clemma]

Ah, Bryan Carter......fabulous.

Make sure you write to him as well (after writing to Boxclever about the mis-sold insurance) to tell him it's in dispute. BC is quick when it comes to gaining CCJ's, but is also easily beaten.

You need some advice from people who know better about the court process, but as you are only admitting part of the claim, they will transfer the case to your local county court. No one expects you to travel to Northampton.

In your defence you must state about the mis-sold insurance. Point out that you were told you could not have the goods without this. Then point out, that after re-reading your agreement, you spotted the little nugget I have highlighted in my previous post.

There is a letter you can send to BC asking for all information as he has starting proceedings, but for the life of me, I can't find it!!!

[Toffeewoman]

Many, many thanks Clemma - you're a gem.

Don't let it get in the way of work! It's not urgent yet - I think I have around 3 weeks before my defence goes in.

Will check about and look at your link/search forum.

Thank you

Really appreciate everyone who's replied here.

ETA I just read your 13.12 post. Yes I think I may have seen the letter somewhere. Have been reading a lot and have lost where it was now! I'll find it but may need a break for a bit. Have been up all night looking for answers. It's not like I have to get the case done yet either - it's a bit nervewracking, eh.

Cheers - hope work goes easy on you!

[kiptower]

their claim is for goods sold , they didnt sell you anything it was a hire / lease, which they should have repaired when it broke down, now as its 8 years old, which would be seen as its service life, then the broken down goods leased have no value, I dont think you should be admitting to any part of the claim, because they say they delivered a new machine and didnt , they cant claim for it full stop, they have to prove you got the phantom new machine,

you might need better wording for your defence but this is a start for you

its clearly defined as "This is a Hire Agreement" not something you bought