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    • Yes, Hotpoint UK has been a subsidiary of Whirlpool for over 20 years. And unlike some domestic goods manufacturers you can buy from them direct and I believe they employ their own service engineers, Is that your situation? You bought direct from Hotpoint and Hotpoint sent out their own engineer?
    • It's Hotpoint (but I believe they're part of the Whirlpool group now?). The part was bought direct from them as a consumer.
    • Thanks BankFodder for your latest, I'm in complete agreement on the subject of mediation and will be choosing to decline mediation, the longer timeline is not an issue for me, I will happily let the going to court run it's course. I really appreciate the support from the Consumer Action Group. I'll post the email text I'm sending to Evri's small claims in answer to their recent defence response. Regards, J    email text I'm sending to Evri's small claims in answer to their recent defence response:  
    • Sec127 (3) repealed, now gone. S. 127(3)-(5) repealed (6.4.2007) by Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14), ss. {15}, 70, 71(2), {Sch. 4} (with Sch. 3 para. 11); S.I. 2007/123, art. 3(2), Sch. 2
    • We used to recommend that people accept mediation but our advice has changed. The mediation process is unclear. Before you can embark on it you have to agree that you are prepared to enter a compromise – and that means that you agree that you are prepared to give up some of your rights even though you are completely in the right and you are entitled to hundred percent of your money and even though EVRi are simply trying to obstruct you in order to discourage you and also to put others who might want to follow your example off from claiming and even though they have a legitimate basis for reimbursement. Mediation is not transparent. In addition to having to sign up that you are prepared to give up some of your rights, you will also have to agree not to reveal any details of the mediation – including the result of the mediation – so that the whole thing is kept secret. This is not open justice. Mediation has nothing to do with justice. The only way of getting justice is to make sure that this matter goes to trial unless EVRi or the other parcel delivery companies put their hands up and accept the responsibility even if they do it is a gesture of goodwill. Going to trial and winning at trial produces a judgement which we can then add to our small collection to assist other people who are in a similar boat. EVRi had been leading you around by the nose since at least January – and probably last year as well – and their whole purpose is simply to drag it out, to place obstacles in your way, to deter other people, and to make you wish that you'd never started the process and that you are prepared to give up your 300 quid. You shouldn't stand for it. You should take control. EVRi would prefer that you went to mediation and if nothing else that is one excellent reason why you should decline mediation and go to court. If it's good for them it's bad for you. On mediation form, you should sign that you are not prepared to compromise and that you are not prepared to keep the result secret but that you want to share the results with other people in similar circumstances. This means that the mediation won't go ahead. It will take slightly longer and you will have to pay a court fee but you will get that back when you win and you will have much greater satisfaction. Also, once you go the whole process, you will learn even more about bringing a small claim in the County Court so that if this kind of thing happens again you will know what to do and you will go ahead without any hesitation. Finally, if you call EVRi's bluff and refuse mediation and go to trial, there is a chance – maybe not a big chance – but there is a chance that they will agree to pay out your claim before trial simply in order to avoid a judgement. Another judgement against them will simply hurt the position even more and they really don't want this. 300 quid plus your costs is peanuts to them. They don't care about it. They will set it off against tax so the taxpayer will make their contribution. It's all about maintaining their business model of not being liable for anything, and limiting or excluding liability contrary to section 57 and section 72 of the consumer rights act.     And incidentally, there is a myth that if you refuse mediation that somehow it will go against you and the judge will take a dim view and be critical of you. This is precisely a myth. It's not true. It would be highly improper if any judge decided the case against you on anything other than the facts and the law of the case. So don't worry about that. The downside of declining mediation is that your case will take slightly longer. The upside is that if you win you will get all your money and you will have a judgement in your favour which will help others. The chances of you winning in this case are better than 95% and of course you would then receive 100% of your claim plus costs
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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A fundamental flaw in NatWest's accounting system


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Natwest are my personal bank, and I've discovered they know how to exploit technology to their advantage.

 

In common with anyone who uses Ebay, I use Paypal to process payments to various people. The Natwest see Paypal as a mechanism they can use to trigger their charges. Let me give you an example.

 

I make a Paypal transaction on the Tuesday. It shows up immediately, and the funds have gone from my bank. On Wednesday it is still there, though marked as a pending transaction.

 

On the Thursday, however, the paypal transaction is gone completely. The funds of the paypal transaction are back in the account, and there is no record of the transaction whatsoever. On the particular Thursday I'm thinking of, by co-incidence, an automated transaction to my Solo card went out. This showed up on the Thursday as a cleared transaction.

 

On Friday, the last chance before the weekend, the paypal transaction still wasn't there. The thing is, the combined amount of the automated transaction AND the paypal transaction would take me overdrawn, meaning that Friday is the last time I have to pay in sufficient funds to cover both, as my branch doesn't open on a Saturday.

 

On Saturday, BANG, the Paypal transaction is back, and it's cleared. Remember, it's been promised since Tuesday, so the bank can't bounce it. The Solo payment cleared and went out on Thursday so that won't bounce either.

 

By the Monday morning I've been charged for the time the account was in the red (2 days, though not two BANK WORKING days - this doesn't matter to them however, for charging purposes they never differentiate between bank working days and none bank working days) plus their computer writes to me straight away to tell me that it's charging me £38 for the letter and paying the Paypal transaction.

 

Has anyone been caught out by anything similar?

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With respect I'm not sure of your moderator status - let me explain and please correct me If i'm wrong:

 

You know that two transactions are going to hit your account because you've authorised them, you further know that the combined amount of these transactions is greater that the available funds in your account, you then have the audacity to complain and request a refund of charges because of this....

 

Now I'm not sure that this is the right attitude to have (A) being a moderator and (B) bringing about a change in banking practices in the UK in punitive charging.....

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With respect I'm not sure of your moderator status - let me explain and please correct me If i'm wrong:

 

You know that two transactions are going to hit your account because you've authorised them, you further know that the combined amount of these transactions is greater that the available funds in your account, you then have the audacity to complain and request a refund of charges because of this....

 

Now I'm not sure that this is the right attitude to have (A) being a moderator and (B) bringing about a change in banking practices in the UK in punitive charging.....

 

I can see your point, if it were not for one thing. In my case, the transaction that occurred was what you might term a "variable" debit. In this case a subscription to an online game, who had a habit of delaying billing peoples cards as compensation for serverdown time. If it was solely related to something like a direct debit or a standing order, where I KNEW the day without fail, I'd fully agree with you, but such variable debits can be up to a week different each month.

 

I highlighted this case in particular because from what I've seen it seems to be a difficulty with the way banks interact with Paypal and I wanted to bring to light the fact that transactions CAN apparently disappear for several days.

 

Despite any dispute about the balances, I still think it strange that paypal transactions can vanish from the online banking system (and apparently from NatWest's systems, if a call to them on the day a paypal transaction has vanished is anything to go by) completely. If they can cause a Paypal payment to vanish, can they do it with other things?

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this is the case with solo, had it happen with various amounts including

 

1500 gone on friday...earmarked

 

 

come monday its back in my accout

 

 

the on tuesday it comes back and is deducted from my account

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I'm glad it's not just me then.

 

I was chatting with someone the other day and we got on to the topic of mistakes by third parties, a thing which also affects the "YOU should know what's going out" argument.

 

There have been cases where a third party has asked the bank for a deduction that is wrong, or has sent a duplicate transaction. Where this happens the bank pays without question, but if the mistake lies with a third party, where does the responsibility for looking out for the account lie?

 

Going by previous records, and what I've read in the press, the NatWest is on the list of banks that don't tend to inform someone the moment there's a problem. If they only send out monthly statements, a mistake is made at the beginning of the month, and the account holder isn't aware until they receive the statement at the end of the month, where does the responsibility for any bounced items in the interim lie, baring in mind the account holder is likely to have budgeted for the correct amount, not the amount that was actually put through?

 

Paypal transactions disappearing ARE a glitch in the accounting system, and it's obviously not just me who is seeing it occur, particularly if Solo cards are the cards that are linked to Paypal (mine is too, btw). I still haven't had anything from the bank which explains this anomaly.

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On the basis that exceeding the agreed overdraft limit is a breach of contract, the banks has a duty to mitigate their loss.

You might reasonaly argue therefore that they have a duty to inform the customer as quickly as possible so that the breach can be remedied. It could be an argument for a furth reduction of the charges.

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  • 2 weeks later...

In Whisperwolf's defence here, I too have had a similar problem, except mine has been in the past and this week, waiting til I am over my limit due to an incorrect charge, then slamming me with a £38 charge for a £3.86 Paypal direct debit. The dates paypal pulls and the banks honour the payments are never quite the same each month.

 

But having read this post, I realise I'm not the only one they play about with paypal payments with - oh and it's NatWest again!!!!!

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  • 8 months later...
  • 12 years later...

This topic was closed on 03/05/19.

If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support their.

If you would like to post up some information which is relevant to this particular topic then please flag the issue up to the site team and the thread will be reopened.

- Consumer Action Group

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